Dr Doug McGuff courtesy of HITuni.com
Dr Doug McGuff (Instagram / YouTube) is the co-author of Body by Science: A Research Based Program for Strength Training, Body building, and Complete Fitness in 12 Minutes a Week and The Primal Prescription: Surviving The “Sick Care” Sinkhole.
Doug practices full-time emergency medicine with Blue Ridge Emergency Physicians and owns, Ultimate Exercise, where he and his instructors continue to explore the limits of exercise through their personal training of clients. Doug is one of the leading experts in high intensity strength training and provides consultancy services to help you achieve your health and body composition goals, setup a home gym, or start a HIT facility HERE.
Listen to all of my episodes with Doug HERE.
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This episode is Doug’s response to Should I Bulk Up (#157). In episode 157, I described how I was feeling insecure about my physique and embarked on a calorie surplus alongside my training regime to attempt to stimulate more muscle growth. In this latest episode (#161), Doug describes precisely why he thinks this is a bad idea.
This is one of the most important episodes I’ve published on the pursuit of optimal muscle gain and strength training over the long term. If you are a hardgainer or been doing HIT for a long time, you will find this enlightening, hilariously honest and very helpful. I am so excited and honoured to be able to bring you this.
“By the time we get to where we are …. I think what you experience is …. stimulus, recovery, nothing. Stimulus, recovery, nothing. Stimulus, recovery, nothing. Stimulus, recovery, nothing. Stimulus, recovery, nothing. Stimulus, recovery … then suddenly something happens.”
~ Dr Doug McGuff
In this episode, we discuss:
- How gaining body fat can potentially reduce muscle mass
- How calorie intake for muscle gain should perhaps be organic
- The truth about Doug’s own genetics and training failures (this will shock you!)
- How to spot if you’re over training
- … and much, much more
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Enjoy!
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Selected Links from the Episode
- Reverse Anorexia
- The 4 Hour Body: An Uncommon Guide to Rapid Fat Loss, Incredible Sex and Becoming Superhuman by Tim Ferriss ( Amazon US / Amazon UK )
- Body by Science: A Research Based Program for Strength Training, Body Building, and Complete Fitness in 12 Minutes a Week by Dr Doug McGuff and John R. Little ( Amazon US / Amazon UK )
- Can Understanding and Accepting Genetic Limitations Be Empowering? By Richard Winett
- From 29 to 52: 24 years of getting leaner & getting better by Richard Winett
- The Six Year Itch: Was It All A Waste Of Time? By Skyler Tanner
- Hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis
- High intensity strength training
- Mesomorphic
- 5×5 Training
- I Love Lucy
- Selection bias
- Brad Pitt’s physique in Fight Club
- Kieser Training
- Dr Doug McGuff’s workout at Exercise Inc with Bo Railey
- High intensity training
People Mentioned
- Skyler Tanner (Listen to my episodes with Skyler here: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, and Part 6)
- Richard Winett (Listen to my episodes with Richard here: Part 1 and Part 2)
- Dr. James Steele (Listen to my episodes with James here: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4)
- Dr Jürgen Giessing
- Arthur Jones
- Dr Ellington Darden
- Greg Anderson
- Donald Trump
- William Frawley (played Fred Mertz in I Love Lucy)
- Jackie Gleason
- Joshua Trentine
- Brad Pitt
- Mike Mentzer
- Frank Zane
- Brian Johnston (Listen to my episode with Brian here)
- David Landau (Listen to my episodes with David here: Part 1 and Part 2)
- Mike Lipowski (Listen to my episode with Mike here)
- Richard Chartrand (Listen to my episode with Richard here)
- Andrew Shortt (Listen to my episode with Andrew here)
- Luke Carlson (Listen to my episodes with Luke here: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, and Part 5)
- Bo Railey
507 – Can Lengthened Partials Supercharge Your Clients’ Muscle Gains (and How Can You Break Out of Training Plateaus)? Dr. James Steele’s New Study
426 – Dr Doug McGuff — Expanding ‘Ultimate Exercise’, Navigating the Realities of Running a HIT Studio on Autopilot, Crafting the Ultimate Client Workout Experience, and Delving into Muscle Hypertrophy and Steroid Side Effects
Podcast Transcript: 356 – Low Frequency Workouts, Relaxing Diet Dogma, and Challenging the Quantified Self Movement with Dr. James Steele
Sage advice from the good doctor. It’s hard to go wrong with Dr. McGuff’s counsel here, especially for the hardgainers who tend to have delusions of grandeur at times with regards to their physical potential (like me, with 6.25″ wrists, lol). Also, I get the “are you a runner” thing all of the time, Lol. Continue the grind!
“We are conducting self experiments on the one person in the world that’s easiest to fool and that’s ourselves” This is the most important thing that’s been said on any episode of this podcast.
Very true indeed !
I certainly agree that bulking up that results in fat gain is not worth it. But IMHO, you definitely have a good 5 pounds of muscle you can pack on your frame within 1 year. Start with a simple 250 calories over maintenance. I would make that 250 just protein.
Start working out once every 3 days (that’s 10 workouts over 30 days), so it’s a little over 2 per week. 7-8 exercises per workout.
See where that goes, if after 8 weeks you’ve seen no lean gains, increase calories another 250. If you’ve gained 1 pound of muscle, then keep at it.
You should do it now, your hormone levels are still high, make use of them.
I’m certain you have 5 pounds of muscle that is within reach within 1-2 years. If you were 40, I would not be as optimistic.
Great podcast
@51:58 “appropriately lean”
Have not been able to find credible references to healthy / appropriate body fat % for older males.
Seems that in the standard tables everyone over 50 is lumped together in some ultra wide range
From knowledge to wisdom. Comes with aging/experience if……….one knows what to look for and what ones life is all about.
Good luck in deciding .
FANTASTIC interview – Doug, listening to this gave me the same feeling I had when I first read BBS: you nailed it sir. Not only spot on, but very eloquently communicated too. I have never heard anyone put it quite like this before, but you had me nodding all the way through.. What really struck me was how easily distracted we are by short-term inconsequential details – we need to keep pulling ourselves back to the big picture and thinking about everything in the context of the long-term – ie YEARS as opposed to weeks..I am now much more aware of trying to minimise any joint/ ligament damage – got to keep in the game for the long term.. Also, I loved the way you focussed on year-round ‘leannes’: this seems to be a poor-cousin to ‘bulking’ in most body building circles, yet I agree with you that it is probably the most important thing to achieve. In terms of optimum health, I would venture that a lean physique with some good muscle on top is as much as we need. And yes, most people would call us ‘too thin’ but I am used to that now. But as we all know, this sh*t is addicitve: once we start down this path, we end up wanting more and more. Being able to appreciate when we have ‘enough’ is key – but as Doug says still continuing to enjoy the process and take the gains as they come – but not to crave/ depend on them – see them as an added ‘free bonus’ that will be given to us from time to time!
Oh and one more comment to the ‘are carbs needed to bulk?’ question (which seems a bit irrelevant now after Doug has kicked us all into touch..)
According to Dr Keith Baar, the answer is no. See the link below to his STEMtalk podcast, but in summary the reason why people believe carbs are beneficial around resistance training is because they raise insulin, which is a growth factor-related switch for the nutrient sensor M-TOR, which has been shown to increase muscle protein synthesis. However, Dr Baar’s research shows that it’s effect is identical to that of mechanical exercise itself, so the carbs are not relevant in this circumstance. Amino acids on the other hand, especially leucine and the other Essential Aminos, increase M-TOR and muscle protein synthesis in a complementary way though, so they are definitley beneficial. Carbs therefore only needed if one needs to replenish glycogen stores within hours. Not something that too many of us HIT-ites will be doing I guess.. Personally, I’d advise adjusting your calories with protein instead, since there is no downside to higher protein %s. Unless you ask Dr Valter Longo of course, but I can’t help feeling he is following his own agenda on this one, the consensus of research seems to indicate that high protein is the way to go..
https://www.ihmc.us/stemtalk/episode-62/
Yeah, but why use your protein for energy? What’s a good reason not to eat carbohydrates in your diet?
Sorry, I didn’t mean that you should necessarily use protein for energy (not that it would matter if you did though, since the body can synthesise the exact amount of glucose it requires for energy from protein via ‘gluconeogenesis’ which has been shown to be very precise demand-driven process as opposed to a simple supply-driven process. Only exception being where you are engaging in power sports and need to generate force/energy quickly – gluconeogenesis is a slower process than burning exogenous glucose.) Many people (me included) have very low carb/ ketogenic style diets and for example I powered through my HIT routine yesterday (hitting some PBs) at the back of a 20 hour fast, having consumed only whey + collagen 40 minutes beforehand, ie no carbs at all. I did consume some carbs (fruit) in my post workout meal though when breaking the fast (and had taken a couple of teaspoons of coconut oil during the fast to avoid hunger).
I feel the best way to approach this is the ‘Leangains’ protocol, ie to firstly aim to get around 2g – 4g protein per kilo of bodyweight, then to back-fill the remainder of your calorie requirement (if you are trying to lose fat that is, maybe specific calorie goals not so relevant once you have reached a stable level of body fat) with wholefood sources of carbs or fat to suit your personal preference. Maybe more carbs/ less fat on workout days (to replete glycogen stores) and vice-versa on non-workout days, but again really just personal preference – I’m pretty much low-carb most days now.
Got it. Yeah, some just prefer a lower carb/keto diet because of the way it makes them feel (not to mention people who do it for medical reasons) and/or to control hunger. That’s totally respectable (for whatever reason, many HIT folks (but not just) bought into the carb-insulin-obesity hypothesis hook line and sinker (me too) which was interesting since they prided themselves on being evidence based and skeptical). I do like paleo as a framework for a a healthy diet. It still provides a lot of wiggle room for variation.
Oh and as regards your second question – absolutely nothing wrong with ‘wholefood’ carbs (ie fruits, whole starchy veggies) in the context of a high protein diet and within the context of your calorie goals. For me, low-carb is purely down to personal preference – I feel more clear-headed and energetic with when minimising carbs. Also, it has been noted that those following a higher-carb approach to leaning down may well experience more food cravings/ hunger etc and find the whole process of leaning down much more challenging than a low-carb approach. But as ever, it depends on the individual response!
I agree.
Exactly !
“Carbs spare protein in ways that fat can’t”
I recommend watching this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk0F6WK6-KM
Great link Shameer, thanks for posting that – I follow Chris Masterjohn’s podcasts but I hadn’t seen this video. In the last 3 minutes he talks about the fact that whilst carbs spare protein more than fat – taking in sufficient (ie higher) protein is an alternative strategy.
Great video and this is something that many people don’t realize and yet another reason why carbs are important .
Awesome! This one is really one of the best on the blog. Congratulations Lawrence. That should have provided you with a relief after all the bombardment you’ve received from us all, after publishing the”Should I bulk up” episode :))) Very very nice indeed.
Just for the record and as a Tribute to a man who got mentioned in the conversation – Mike Mentzer… The two “phenomenons”, that Doug talks about, namely the delayed growth spurts after even several months of “training and no gaining” and the unpleasant cycle of bulking, cutting and eventually leaving with less muscle mass than from the start, are both well described in Mike Mentzer’s books.
Very true !
Doug raised an interesting point about the average leaness of WWII recruits. One confounding factor in those years may be the widespread use of tobacco. Otherwise as usual Doug is spot on. Its a process, not a destination.
I suspect that average height was also shorter than the current generation
True that!
Great podcast. I’ve tried slow bulking and bulking and the results are the same. I get fat. Volume or low volume. That’s the general response I get from people on the web when I ask about their routine “You’ve got to eat more”. Eating a lot is not a problem. I can do it. But the result is always the same, I gain fat and almost no muscle to show for it.
I did a slowish bulk for a while but decided to lean down and I’m getting ALL of the remarks you guys are talking about in the podcast. Especially the one’s Doug mentioned at the end.
I’m 5’7.5 and I weigh 149, waist is sitting at 30in.
Now that I’m leaner I’ll try and eat at around maintenance instead. Get enough calories but not so much that I’m gaining weight. If I get hungry I’ll eat more.
The funniest and perhaps most sincere part was in the beginning….we are all saying we do it for the health benefits … etc… that is crap…
What a cool guy!
I actually DID start it for the health benefits. My health was pretty bad. I took care of that but after a while of lifting and eating right I kind of started wondering why the heck I didn’t look like I worked out! I come for the health benefits, I stayed for the muscles…even if they don’t come.
I agree with almost everything Dr. McGuff said.
Don’t do it! Lawrence.
The average weight of American WW2 soldiers was somewhat surprising.
Not much new information though!
Dr. McGuff is wrong on the scheduling of anabolic steroids.
They fall into schedule 3 …not Schedule 1!
https://www.dea.gov/drug-scheduling
I feel cheated that Dr. McGuff did not comment on Dr. Winett’s cardiovascular training.
“But when I switched my cardiovascular training to short distances and sprinting, I’m really got quite good. Indeed, casting modesty to the winds, I’m spectacular doing sprints. I could have been an excellent 200-meter or 400-meter runner. I never would have discovered that if I had not tried a very different style of training with very different goals.”
An ethical healthcare provider has no other choice but to administer therapy in a way that reasonable persons can benefit. That is a huge can of worms!
Marc
I think you should pack on as much muscle as your genetics will allow. Here’s Simeon Panda, a top-level bodybuilder. He’s not in competition form in this tweet but he’s anything but fat & looks great.
https://twitter.com/SimeonPanda/status/1045038069286498305
If he’s natural then he’s one of the biggest genetic freaks that has ever lived. Hardly speaking to the message of this episode.
And that’s a very big if ! LMAO !
Good episode, with some very good advice. I’ll offer a few comments, based on my own experience and reading:
I love to strength train, I enjoy food, and I gain weight easily. As a result, I have occasionally done accidental or unintentional bulks. There have been stretches where I was lifting heavy and seeing my weight go up, because I was eating to appetite and not trying hard enough to control my weight. During some of those stretches, I did get stronger, felt more robust, and appeared to be gaining some muscle as well as fat. But inevitably, I’ve had to cut the fat for health reasons. And inevitably, by the time I got back to a more appropriate degree of leaness, I didn’t end up with any net gain in muscle or strength. I can’t say that I felt like I was worse off than before, just there was no net gain from a bulk and cut cycle.
Why is bulking popular? Aside from the fact that it is enjoyable to eat, I think there are two factors:
1). I believe that within some limited range (8% to 20% body fat) being fatter does make it easier for some people to carry more muscle. But it doesn’t take much to get to the point of diminishing returns. And typically, those gains in muscle cannot be preserved when cutting. At least that was my experience. I think this is also evident in the experience of body builders who are leaning out for a contest. I think it is pretty common, when trying to get very lean (<8% body fat) for those guys to see considerable losses of strength and muscle mass. Absent great genetics and drugs, it is almost impossible to be big and lean.
2). Add to the above the existence of misleading anecdotes: I think you can find some genetically gifted folks who are undermuscled because they don’t strength train, or they are hyperactive, or they do a lot of cardio or other endurance based sports, or they are underfed from trying to be really lean. Put those people on a lifting program and a calorie surplus, they will blow up like an inflatable Schwartzenegger doll. They become the “proof” that you can eat big and get jacked. But what works for the genetically gifted isn’t really very instructive for the rest of us.
Doug’s suggestion to find your optimal body fat percentage, and then just be patient and consistent is excellent. I’m not sure I believe that everyone will add 1.5 lbs/years with that regime. That probably shows a lot of individual variation.
Doug’s comments about how the training cycle changes with experienced trainees lines up nicely with conventional thinking in the barbell world. A beginner is considered someone who can add weight to the bar after every training session. When those beginner gains are exhausted, you are supposed to think about making progress on a weekly to monthly basis. (This is for folks doing 3-4 sessions per week).
Regarding Richard Winnett’s article: my take away was that he felt he had an upper limit of about 140 lbs of lean body weight, and the only thing that had really caused his weight to vary was the amount of body fat that he carried. I don’t get the impression that he would offer himself up as an example of someone who gained 1.5 lbs lean body mass per year for an extended time.
I agree 100% with Doug that we have very misleading perceptions of what normal weight human beings should look like, for the reasons he cites. The data I’ve seen suggests that recruits into the Union Army (US Civil War) averaged about 5’8” and 143 lbs. (British recruits in WW1 were perhaps a little shorter and lighter than this, more like 5’7” and 130 lbs) By WWII the average size of US soliders hadn’t changed much, still about 5’8” and the 140’s. After WW2, average heights and weights started to increase, probably a combination of better food availability, consumption of more meat and dairy, better medical care, less exposure to infectious diseases, etc.
Great episode ????
Personally the bodybuilder physique has never appealed to me. Your physique should be the gold standard to most people I believe Lawrence.
Just look at most middleweight boxers they aren’t huge but they look great. Unfortunately most people aspire to look like Anthony Joshua instead which results in them getting fat and/or using steroids.
Brad Pitts physique in fight club is seen as amazing by most people and I believe he was only 150 pounds and 6ft in it. Also think most women prefer this kind of physique.
Steroids and performance enhancing drugs are so widely used now that it has set the bar unrealistically high for most natural trainers.
Wow, listened to that one THREE times! I feel just as excited as I did after initially reading Body by Science. Doug’s comments on psychologically owning what it means to be average are so helpful to those of us who are more average. Maybe we should start a 7 inch wrist club!
I think there’s some profound truths here and the ideas apply to any long term endeavor: understand the long term rate of progress, stick to it, repeat, enjoy, and let go of the angst.
Another fantastic interview Lawrence! Definitely one you need to listen to a couple of times to be able to absorb everything.
Just finished listening to the podcast and i must say one of the best i’ve listened to ! The most profound point to me was the fact that our concept of what big/muscular actually is has been totally perverted by performance enhancing drugs & the bodybuilding/fitness field .
Absolutely! And the fact that the use of such substances (all sorts of them) is so widespread, beyond belief, is a big part of the reason for existing flawed training programs design and training and diet approach in general. It’s simply unnatural and unreal.
Very true !
Lawrence:
My Deep Thoughts:
Once puberty has run it course and hard exercise has been performed for several years muscle gain is “about a pound a year” for the average Joe past the age of 20. Fat is easy to gain, but this ain’t Sumo. If you want to look bigger (temporarily), do the pictures post workout after carb loading for a day, get a tan (10 minutes at a tanning booth should cover it), and shave the body hair, and spray water on the skin right before the photo 🙂 By the time you are 40 you might be at 165. This is a great accomplishment, and only compare yourself to…yourself. I have been up and down the get big game and you are lucky to be able to stay lean. Of topic, I am working on my HitUni MPT, how are you coming along on yours?