Dr Martin Gibala (photo courtesy of McMaster University)
Martin Gibala, Ph.D. is a professor and chair of the Department of Kinesiology at McMaster University in Hamilton, Canada. His research on the health benefits of interval training has attracted immense scientific attention and worldwide media coverage. He is the author of a bestselling book, The One-Minute Workout: Science Shows a Way to Get Fit That’s Smarter, Faster, Shorter.
Martin has published more than a hundred peer-reviewed articles, is frequently invited to speak at international scientific meetings, and has received multiple awards for teaching excellence.
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Highlights:
- HIT vs HIIT – do you need both?
- The potential downsides of HIIT
- How HIIT can help you perform in endurance based events
- …. and much, much more
Let me know what you think about the HIT vs HIIT debate in the comments below!
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Selected Links from the Episode
- High intensity interval training
- High intensity training
- Body by Science: A Research Based Program for Strength Training, Body Building, and Complete Fitness in 12 Minutes a Week by Dr Doug McGuff and John R. Little ( Amazon US / Amazon UK )
- The One-Minute Workout Designed by Scientists — Dr. Martin Gibala (Tim Ferriss Show Podcast)
- Twelve Weeks of Sprint Interval Training Improves Indices of Cardiometabolic Health Similar to Traditional Endurance Training despite a Five-Fold Lower Exercise Volume and Time Commitment
- VO2 max
- Calisthenics
- Wingate test
- Cardiorespiratory fitness
- American College of Sports Medicine
- Muscle hypertrophy
- Galway, Ireland
- The 4 Hour Body: An Uncommon Guide to Rapid Fat Loss, Incredible Sex and Becoming Superhuman by Tim Ferriss ( Amazon US / Amazon UK )
- Tough Mudder
- Survival of the Fittest
- Effect of resistance training on inflammatory markers of older adults: A meta-analysis
- Resistance exercise for muscular strength in older adults: a meta-analysis
- Psychological and behavioural responses to interval and continuous exercise
People Mentioned
- Dr Doug McGuff (Listen to my episodes with Doug here: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 and Part 4)
- Tim Ferriss
- Mike Bradley (Listen to my episode with Mike here)
- Dr Stuart Phillips (Listen to my episodes with Stuart here: Part 1 and Part 2)
- Matthew J Stork
- Dr. Kathleen Martin Ginis
500 – What I’ve Learned After 11 Years of Interviewing World-Class HIT Experts and Fitness Entrepreneurs (Luke Carlson interviews Lawrence Neal)
499 – The Best HIT Protocol for Strength, Muscle Mass, and Hypertrophy (SuperSlow VS High-Volume HIT Debate with Dagoberto Vila and Dr. James Fisher)
498 – How to Fine-Tune Your HIT Workouts and Design A Great Client Experience (with Luke Carlson)
Good info Lawrence although I think again that the exercise concept wasn’t explained well. You pointing to the fact that the modality used for Vo2max testing has a skill factor was what popped up in my mind also. I think Martin waved that a bit to the side. CV improvements are more general and the muscular improvements are specific. The skill factor comes to that also. Remember the cycle test with one leg? No improvement in the non trained leg despite some general improvements.
What I think you went wrong with was calling some category of HIT/exercise as dogmatic and by this a limiting factor for reaching more people to start exercise(the real thing). Following facts is not dogmatic.True, some variation exist and many use these for cornering their busines. But making exercise less strict for reaching more clients ( and that is what it is. Not altruistic helping others!!) is a step in a wrong direction IMO. We must educate them better and explain that they have to change their view on who is responsible for their health!!. Many have a Disneyland mindset. Think everything must be fun, hard work is…..well hard. I don’t say that they act like this in every life issue(many do though) but come health….they do.
What i also think to hear was that that it comes very often down to maximum performance in relation to Vo2Max. I personal do not care about this. How much of this is really needed to live a good life, being active up to old age? In this aspect I think muscle mass/strength is more important and if this is build and sustained by a safe and efficient method (YES, exercise as it is explained “dogmatic”) much of the energy enzymes and bloodvessel health will be taken care of. Much more important then becomes how one eats and other lifestyle factors. Keep low grade inflamation low, reduce ROS etc.
I see in fact no reason to do weekly both types of activity for health, but if one wants to…..longterm high forces however….??
Maybe, ou think now I’m opposite to Martins ideas and conclusions. In general, no. He makes very good clear that for becoming and staying healthy one doesn’t have to invest much of time.The rest is probably a matter of preference….. regarding modality and activity level goals.
And , I have his book. A must read since in almost any book one finds connection dots. I applaud you for delivering dots Lawrenceand in this case Martin.
Now we have to move on and make the world a better place……
I feel vindicated! Best interview of all time here!
The foremost authority on HIIT destroyed HIT’s anti-aerobic stance in his 1st word … No! … that he said … as Lawrence got his biased HIT backside handed to him in this very first word.
This also means that John Little and Dr. Doug McGuff misinterpreted Dr. Gibala’s work in their co-authorship of THE BBS BOOK. The BBS book is somewhat loosely based (although erroneous) on some of Gibala’s work. We now know that Gibala does not agree AT ALL with the BBS approach to fitness. Did Little and McGuff deliberately mislead in their book about Gibala … they should clear up their obvious mislabeling of Gibala’s work.
Lawrence …. too bad you were not up-to-date on aerobic training, which may have better prepared you for many more salient questions of this foremost authority on HIIT. Question on mitochondria would have been very nice to hear about.
Dr. Gibala’s book is 1st rate …. and contains no apparent deceit as BBS does.
Muscular endurance rules!
Now … interview Dr. Michael Mosley
Is this the same marcrph that got his backside handed to him on the old BBS blog by Doug McGuff while continually promoting exercise resistance bands and criticising all things BBS, then stating he was running out of gas shovelling snow? Doug’s reply was absolute gold!
Are you also the same marcrph that that uses several different often changing pseudonyms when posting on other HIT forums including Dr Dardens, whilst trying to promote your own wacko exercise philosophy and hand picking any data that may justify your opinions? ATP4vitality?
You generally always turn up on these sites then disappear often with your tail between your legs when your theories often get found wanting.
Always good to have good open honest discussion with differing opinions Lawrence, but in the end it’s us, the end user who knows what works best for us.
I for one have in the past used a HIIT training protocol as promoted by Phil Campbell, Sprint 8, so I can’t ever be accused of being some close minded exercise nutter.
Unfortunately I now have a significant health issue to deal with so I have tailored my exercise program around what works for me and am more than happy with the results. Intense, brief and infrequent ticks all the boxes for me.
Blatant misrepresentations! Willful Deceit!! OUTRIGHT LIES!!!
I guess Doug and John have been revealed as members of a libertarian cabal, one that is conspiring to undercut the globalist and institutionalized promotion of….. AEROBICS! After all, Ken Cooper had ties to the GOVERNMENT. Better put in a call to Alex Jones…..
Or maybe they just disagree on the interpretation of the evidence, possibly influenced by their personal biases (just like everyone else).
What’s the word I’m looking for? Sad….
LMAO !!!!
What’s the word I’m looking for? Sad….
Indeed … Sad! That 2 individuals could be so wrong on a subject. The information on proper CV conditioning abounds…. with little disagreement of the true experts.
Marc with all due respect you really need to get off your high horse . Science whether you realize it or not isn’t the bastion of truth . Mr Gibala is simply stating his opinion that’s all as none of this is definitive . Mr Gibala himself stated that the same type of changes that traditional steady state exercise produces is also produced by short bouts of intense exercise . The truth is that science simply doesn’t know nor understand a lot about the human body .
I recognize your personal attack here. I’m sure others will not! Your seemingly disrespect of science is noted …. and hopefully you will not ever need “science.” Why don’t you educate yourself on cardiovascular conditioning as you seem clearly misled by others on the importance of CV conditioning? Until then, it seems a waste of time from my perspective to even discuss this issue with anyone so lacking in basic knowledge of the subject.
Funny how you continue to write comments to someone as ignorant as myself !
That was a good interview, with a knowledgeable guest who seems pretty balanced in his views.
Just a couple of observations, comments, and questions:
I’ve never before seen a formal distinction drawn between high intensity intervals (at 80%) and sprint intervals (at 100%). That means the traditional Tabata protocol, which was first used to highlight the value of HIIT was actually a sprint interval. I’ve found that what he terms sprint intervals are pretty brutal, and therefore difficult to sustain over the long haul. I’m happy to learn that there is value in interval work where the intense portion of the program is done with submaximal effort.
When people talk about the time efficiency of HIIT, they tend to focus on the brief time spent doing intense work, and discount the rest periods. But the rest periods still count as time in the gym, and away from life. So if you do 10 intervals of 1 minute each, but are resting 2 or 3 minutes in between, you have still committted 20 to 30 minutes to the workout. And if you are doing these HIIT sessions 3 to 4 times a week, you are committing up to 2 hours a week to that kind of training. It isn’t like training for a marathon, but that is a lot more than a once per week 20 minute session on an ARX machine, for example.
Also, despite having read his book (now awhile ago), I still don’t really understand what the trade-offs are with respect to the duration of the intervals, the intensity of the intervals, the number of intervals done, and the ratio of work to rest. In particular, if you are interested in the minimum effective dose, but also know that you are not likely to stick to Sprint Intervals, what is the most time efficient approach, leading to the lowest overall time commitment? I’m sure that much of that hasn’t been studied yet. I wonder if they are working on studies that would answer those more specific questions?
Some cardiologists who are fans of HIIT (recommend a significant dose of weekly HIIT) still recommend at least one weekly session of sustained (30+ minutes) steady cardio for what it does to the adaptation of the heart (i.e., promotes eccentric hypertrophy and flexible arteries). I wonder about his thoughts on that.
It was interesting that he pointed to the activation of different signaling pathways to draw something of a distinction between traditional cardio vs strength training. I saw another study recently where they looked at gene activation in response to strength training, cardio training, and combined strength plus cardio. Cardio by itself activated a much greater number of genes than strength training alone. Cardio was particularly good at affecting things related to the muscle mitochondria. Of course, we have known for awhile that traditional cardio can impose greater demands on the heart and CV than strength training, even if heart rate elevation is similar (because it happens for different reasons).
I could be wrong but i honestly don’t see how an intense set or perhaps two of leg presses wouldn’t cause the same adaptations in the muscle that biking or walking/jogging would produce . As a matter of fact i would think that the leg presses would given the very intense nature of it would have perhaps even more profound effects upon the muscles .
Same here. I can’t figure it out myself either. When I think walking, biking…the only thing that comes to mind is very low order of any effect.
Exactly .
With regard to the leg muscles, walking/running work relies mostly on an aerobic energy pathway whereas heavy leg press stresses the anaerobic energy pathway. So these are likely to produce somewhat different adaptations within the muscles that do the work. If I recall correctly, with extended endurance efforts you get greater increases in the local concentration of mitochondria, and the muscles develop extra capillaries to facilitate oxygen transport. These specific adaptations are valuable to an endurance athlete’s performance.
In terms of central adaptations, traditional cardio imposes the highest demand for oxygenated blood (the highest possible total oxygen demand). The high heart rate results from trying to supply this large volume of blood. The rhythmic rapid contractions of the exercising muscles further enhances blood flow return. All this tends to stretch out the heart muscle and increase the volume of the heart (eccentric hypertrophy).
With strength training, there is also an increase in oxygen demand, which results in a higher heart rate. However, in strength training, you also have elevation of heart rate because the muscles are undergoing longer duration contractions, with elevation of blood pressure. The heart beats faster to overcome the extra resistance to blood flow. This later effect tends to favor concentric hypertrophy of the heart (the wall of the heart muscle gets thicker from having to pump blood against higher back pressure).
In practice, any kind of intense exercise will produce both effects, with the balance between the two adaptations being determined by the specific requirements of the exercises that you train with. Rowers, for example, who need both endurance and strength, tend to have hearts which have large stroke volumes and thicker walls.
I see what your saying but lets not forget that there is no difference really between endurance & strength as endurance is simply a byproduct of strength . As far as energy pathways the more intense the muscular activity the more it will tap both pathways .
Totally false! Please educate youself!
Yes sir ! Right away sir !
As far as I understood Dr Doug Mc. Guff on this topic (and basic fysiology) does a good/correct executed exercise program not raise bloodpressure that crazy high. In fact it IS the best programm for cardio rehab. Amd according to Starlings law is there a much better bloodflow return to the heart and less need for a higher heartbeat compared to the traditional endurance activities.
Exercise, correctly understood, is a manipulation to get at the adaptation mechanism(s) of the human body and via that route a stimulus to improve the general functionality of the body. And general here is a important concept.
Walking/running, is something we can do for a reasonable long time since the movement is very efficient. That is, the evolutionaire adaptations to do this WAS to not use much energy, use a mechanical hyper efficient positioning/muscle length, use a spring like effect of tissues etc.
With these thoughts in mind, and we could expand further on it, , why would we even consider to use these activities to propel us in space at such a idiotic high level for a certain long amount of time and frequencey just to improve the CV(?) system. If anything, during evolution we used a high effort to fight or flight, that”s it. Short and infrequent to survive. THAT is the beauty of a correct exercise programm without the real life dangers from the past.
Now, if your hobby or even profession is running/biking/rowing etc. go ahead. Now things are put in another context but the evolutionaire facts remain.
Awesome reply Ad, thanks for putting it here! “… Exercise, correctly understood is a Manipulation, to get at the adaptation mechanism s … ” Best way to put it, I’ve heard in a long time.
Ad,
What I outlined was the explanation that I’d found in physiology text books that I’ve found online, reinforced by explanations in the popular literature relating to the physiology of exercise. I have observed before that Doug’s explanation of what happens to return blood flow during resistance exercise is different, in some ways, from what I’ve seen elsewhere. I’ve never been able to resolve the apparent contradictions to my own satisfaction. In the end, I’m just an amateur sleuth on these matters, reading what I can find on the subject, trying to understand as much as I can on the subject. I certainly am not in a position to authoritative affirm or refute anybody’s explanations.
I did recently come across a review article which suggests that regulation of blood flow and blood pressure during intense exercise is exceedingly complex, when considered in detail:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4551211/
So perhaps all simplistic explanations suitable for non-experts simply fail for their simplicity?
I would note the following: Doug advocates a resistance training protocol that keeps the working muscles under tension for the duration of the set (45 seconds to 180+ seconds). I believe that part of the theory behind the SS protocol is that you occlude blood flow to the muscle, causing oxygen deprivation which forces slow twitch fibers to drop out, thereby forcing the recruitment of anaerobic fast twitch fibers. Assuming that is correct, I find that explanation hard to reconcile with the idea that return blood flow from muscles held under prolonged contraction is somehow enhanced over what you would have with the more frequent, short duration contractions that occur during traditional cardio.
I concur! Cardiologists have written about this! Nothing new here ….. HIT and especially SuperSlow zealots are simply wrong.
You are wrong .
Ellington Darden and some others as well have really called out & questioned this VO2 MAX testing & measuring and the conclusions drawn from this . If i remember correctly Darden actually directly called out a gentleman by the name of Pollock and concluded that in fact nothing was actually being measured with this VO2 MAX .
Sadly, notorious HIT members have denigrated VO2max testing. Ken Hutchins, along with Drew Baye have attempted to discredit this test. Look at these men’s qualifications closely. They are NOT scientists in this area of expertise. Yet many here believe the aforementioned men as the gospel on cardiovascular conditioning. Furthermore, no lab tests are perfect. Neither is VO2max testing.
A prominent cardiovascular conditioning expert is Martin Gibala Ph.D., not Ken Hutchins or Drew Baye. Here are the REAL words of Dr. Gibala:
“Fitness means different things to different people. To exercise scientists, it means cardiorespiratory fitness, a parameter that can be measured in the laboratory by way of a test called maximum oxygen uptake or “VO2max” (the V stands for “volume”). It is also called aerobic fitness, and it refers to the capacity of your body to transport and utilize oxygen. Scientists have found that it’s one of the best predictors of overall health. The more aerobically fit you are, the better your heart can pump blood, the longer it takes you to get out of breath, and the farther and faster you’re able to bike or run or swim. One more thing: It also happens to be the form of fitness that helps you live longer an live better by reducing your chances of developing ailments like cardiovascular disease and diabetes. Aerobic fitness is the thing most of us want when we start working out.”
————- These are Dr. Gibala’s words. His book is excellent.
So …. it is reasonable that if someone were doing a Big 2 or 3 as written in BBS, that person might not have enough cardiovascular conditioning to shovel out of “Snowmaggedon.”
Who informed you about the HIT SYNDICATE ?!
All I say is Timothy Noakes. Ask him how he stayed healthy with a superb VO2Max!!
I personally don’t want to swim or bike as far/fast as possible. I take the boat or the car/cab/bus/train/plain. Try to arrive sooner. Yet I’m convinced that I will live a long(for humans) and healthy life. No orhopedic issues. And my heart, never pushed it toward it’s real limit because some scientist wanted to test something that actually “belongs”to my muscles!! Despite the fact that life can be long it’s to short to waste it!
ad,
I hope resistance only training works for your longevity. My experience shows otherwise.
Thanks, but I do have a life between the workouts. So I’m not inactive. besides that, active and less active people reached old ages with good health knowing nothing about exercise as discussed here. My grandma and her sister reached both age 102. Only the last couple of years in less health. So, that’s from my mothers side. I got the mitochondria from that side……..I’m safe in one aspect I guess.And so we could argument on and on………what would we do if nobody had come up with a VO2 Max test?
I was a bit surprised at Gibala’s fairly unconditional endorsement of the value of VO2 max testing. (I will have to give the podcast a second listen, just to be sure I didn’t miss some nuance.) I’ve read several pieces which suggest that VO2 max is only modestly trainable, and that having a high VO2 max is largely a matter of good genetics. It could correlate well with longevity and endurance fitness, and still not be very trainable, and mostly genetic.
It is not just HIT advocates who have questioned the value of VO2 max. Some running coaches have done the same. Consider this piece by Steve Magness, a guy who has coached world class/Olympic level runners:
https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009/12/fallacy-of-vo2max-and-vo2max.html?v=7516fd43adaa
His piece ends with the following:
“The bottom line question that needs to be asked is why is so much of training focused on a variable that does not change in well trained athletes, barely changes in moderately trained, levels off after a short period of time, and does not even correlate well with performance? Does this sound like a variable that we should be basing all of our training off of?”
I’ve also read much of this VO2-MAX testing and it’s very sketchy to say the least . And some have said that it’s actually a measurement of nothing and plays no role in athletic improvements/performance !
Greg,
That is exactly why an OPEN mind is so valuable. Lawrence should be glad I am so adamant about the TRUTH of cardiovascular training. I am still torn on the value of the two types of cardiovascular training.
LISS vs. HIIT
Too bad this question was not asked of Dr, Gibala!
You must have a CRITICAL MIND as opposed to an open mind as the former is very different from the latter .
Opinions vary!
What goes up must come down ?!
Wow at these comments.
I wish I’d had a VO2 max test two years ago when I was fat and totally untrained. Something happened over that period, by consistently doing mixed modality training…the main thing is though that I’m fit now!